Thoughts on Lore by Epic Games?

Today, Lore was brought to my attention thanks to Ryan Carbotte’s Lore VCS plugin recently uploaded to the asset store. The moment I read Lore’s description I could not believe it, even less that it is a mere 3 weeks old.

Lore is an alternative to Git but more importantly to Perforce/Plastic SCM/SVN. That’s the long story short. It’s a centralized binary-oriented version control system for videogames, like Perforce or Plastic but open source & free of which only SVN is… since 26 years ago, that’s not modern.

As a Subversion user, Lore is exciting and a hope for a future with better support and integration for my preferred game development VCS: anything but Git. And the linked Godot addon is already a testament to the potential of this tool.

Obviously, my eyebrows raised as I read it clearly, “Epic Games”. Thought I misread it but no, this is an OSS initiative by the infamous platform and for such reason it has quickly been criticized as shady and not trustworthy. Considering it is still in beta, the quality tools Epic usually delivers and their official statements on the program and its future, it does not seem like it deserves as much skepticism.

I have personally decided to believe in Lore for now (as it really is not hard for me to switch or handle both SVN and Lore) and I’m eager to see what the future delivers. Do you think Lore could become the main VCS for game development in the following decade?

Also, thanks to Ryan Carbotte for integrating the tool in Godot before any integration of SVN in more than 10 years :sob:

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As a fossil user who previously used svn, my initial impression of Lore is that it’s too similar to git. I hate having to stage changes before committing. That said, fossil is absolutely not suitable for very large binary files, and Lore might prove to be the least bad of the alternatives.

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It’s good that they have explicitly stated through GitHub responses that their intent is not to imitate Git for the sake of it rather if it makes sense. Their command offer is not redundant for now and seems more comprehensible (also because it’s smaller still).

It might be that as Fossil and SVN users we are used to simpler workflows for which, indeed, Lore resembles Git in their powerful but not so straightforward approach. I really value their way of stating why things are done the way they are done:

I think I will check this out.
There is a bit of irony here since open source Lore is hosted on Github.
Maybe there will be a bootstrapping happening and Lore will host the code for Lore.

Your very weird hate for Git notwithstanding, I think Lore is very interesting. I’ve been in software development professionally for 30 years. I’ve used CVS, SVN, Perforce, ClearCase, and Git for version control. And not only have I used them, but I have taught development teams how to use them, how to implement branching strategy, and the pros and cons of different tools.

For those interested, a quick history of open source version control tools: SVN was created to fix a number of issues developers had with CVS. Git was developed to solve many issues that developers had with SVN. Git made the decision to not diff binary files, but store entire files. At the time, this made sense. Especially as use of interpreted languages were on the rise. The DotCom Bubble had burst and web development was in demand. As web development grew, Git became the de-facto solution for most professional software development.

Perforce and ClearCase were the two enterprise solutions for version control. They were proprietary, powerful , and VERY, VERY expensive. They cost tens of thousands of dollars, plus thousands of dollars per year per person (aka per seat) to use. They came with really good support for that cost, but were often too expensive for all but the most successful software companies.

I spent some time reading the Lore docs. Then I did a little digging on their GitHub repo and the people committing to it. Then read up on its history. It combines a lot of good ideas with open source, and does diffs on binary files - which for video games is HUGE. Practically, what it means is you update a 3D model, and when you check the changes in, instead of pushing the entire new model up, it just pushes up the changes to the model - which is a much smaller amount of data.

Lore was developed by Epic in Switzerland. Which is interesting, inasmuch as all their cloud and infrastructure tooling is done there. They use it primarily for Fortnite’s editor, which is developed at their headquarters in Cary, NC, USA. They plan to be using it company-wide by the time Unreal 6 is released.


Some Epic Games Info

Imagine Lore as the technology in Jurassic Park. The scientists made this cool new thing that was quite pure. They sequenced genomes, learned how to edit them and cloned dinosaurs. The research was funded by a private investor, who thought a dinosaur theme park would be cool. It was the height of hubris, and book after book, movie after movie, the dinosaurs kill the little people who work there and just come to the parks to experience what was created.

Lore is open source, with the MIT license which is notoriously pretty permissive. Tell people where you got the software and you can do anything you want with it. That’s pretty cool. It seems very beneficent. It seems like a big video game company is being cool and giving back. And maybe it is. But Epic Games is not a publicly traded company. It is a privately owned company. It is owned by Tim Sweeny who is the founder and CEO.

This is where it gets interesting. Tim Sweeny rules Epic with an iron fist. If you are a favored employee, then you love working there. But if you are not, it is a meat grinder that treats employees as cogs in a machine and spits them out after working them to burnout. Sweeny is notoriously capricious and vindictive inside the company, especially at the high levels. But unless you happen to know people in the company, or work there, you will never hear about it. And they do a lot of work to stay out of the news. They use NDAs liberally, give to the communities they are in, and work hard to create a positive appearance to the outside world. The company is good at it. And it’s not an “evil corporation”. It’s mostly just a bunch of people who love games making games.

An Instructive Dungeons & Dragons History Lesson

Now a history lesson about Dungeons and Dragons. When the 3rd edition of D&D came out, they published the Open Gaming Licenses at the end of their books. It said that anyone could publish a D&D adventure, add-on book, etc. for FREE. The idea was to get more people playing by making more content available for the game. It worked really, really well. Wizards of the Coast had bought D&D 6 years earlier (1997), and then Hasboro bought Wizards 2 years later (1999), and they were trying to reduce costs.

They also took the magazine publications Dungeon (which published adventures) and Dragon (which posted alternate rules, new classes, lore, stories, etc) and outsourced them to a small publishing company called Paizo. Over time, the subscription numbers for these magazines weren’t enough, and Wizards cancelled them, pulled them in-house and made them digital-only. Paizo turned to the OGL and started publishing their own books in their own setting called Pathfinder.

Hasboro/Wizards of the Coast published 4th Edition D&D, and tried to make the rules more computer-game friendly. They lost a huge amount of the pen-and-paper market share to Pathfinder, who instead just improved on the 3.5 ruleset. And no one wanted to make 4th edition D&D video games. People new to D&D loved the system. It was intuitive and easy to use for new players. But most people hated it.

So D&D 5th Edition came out. Hasboro came out with a new version of the OGL license that said the old OGL was invalid, and put a pricing model in similar to what Unity tried. Like with Unity, the backlash was severe. And since 2023, D&D has lost most people’s trust. They lost their dominance in the industry, and their plans for video game money fell apart. (They had made similar blunders with Magic The Gathering the previous year.)

I tell you all this to show you that in the name of money-grubbing, Hasboro did this despite them knowing it was a going to create a lot of hate. They got too big for their britches, and took their two biggest money-makers (MtG and D&D) and ruined them both economically. But if they had not been primarily making money off those two things, they probably would have ignored the public outcry.

Should You Trust Epic?

Hell no.

Yes, they put the MIT license on it. But it’s a centralized system. If Epic (read: Tim Sweeny) decide at some point that it is not economically feasible to keep hosting your code there are many bad things they can do: shut the servers down, take your code (the MIT license covers the system, not their storage of your game), changes the rules and make you pay to get your code… The list goes on. There is also nothing stopping them from training their LLMs on the code you store in their system. Epic already has built-in MCP integration.

When Microsoft bought GitHub, they had to make certain legal guarantees before the foundation would sell to them. Epic is starting from scratch. They have been building an ecosystem for years. You don’t have to pay for using Unreal if you only publish on the Epic store. Despite their fights with Apple and Google, they want their own closed ecosystem to compete with Google Play, Apple Store, the EA App, and Steam. I suspect this is really just another tool to do so.

Should You Use the Tool?

Absolutely.

But only if you are going to protect yourself. And by that, I mean hosting your own Lore server. For game companies, this is an awesome tool that could have a lot of benefits.

For the solo dev or dev team with a handful of people, this tool may not be worth it the trouble. Especially if you do not have an art or sound department. If your binary files aren’t changing, this tool doesn’t provide a whole lot over Git. If they are, this tool definitely seems like a win.

Just keep in mind that at any time, Epic can decide to change the license on future versions after it has people hooked. It would be completely legal to release v1.0 as closed source.

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I was thinking to post about this topic and it has been in my draft for a while.

I tried using the cli and the workflow is not much difference with git. Similar workflow with different terminology used. The quickstart guide was easy to follow and the setup was quite simple. Can use it offline too. Git has some solution to big size binary file using git-lfs but extra step needed to setup and I hear a lot of complain of how awful to work with it.

I glad the Lore exist as opensource software while the alternatives are proprietary and expensive, but there are also Ark VCS and diversion which can be free to use for solo developer and a very small team as per their pricing.

I hope it has a bright future, community build around it, being used more in productions outside of unreal and not depend solely on Epic Games for its maintenance and development.

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It combines a lot of good ideas with open source, and does diffs on binary files - which for video games is HUGE.

That’s hardly a unique selling point. Sane version control systems (e.g. svn, fossil) have always stored all files using binary diffs. I had assumed that this was a universal feature, but apparently git really is missing this basic feature.

If Epic (read: Tim Sweeny) decide at some point that it is not economically feasible to keep hosting your code there are many bad things they can do: shut the servers down, take your code (the MIT license covers the system, not their storage of your game), changes the rules and make you pay to get your code… The list goes on.

Yeah, if you’re using Epic for hosting, which would be a phenomenally stupid thing to do. (Does Epic even offer Lore hosting?) You can get away with hosting on GitHub because git is inherently decentralized, so the same project can (and should) be hosted on many different hosts. When GitHub goes down, you can upload you local master copy of the project to a competitor and be up and running within an hour. With Lore, there is only one master repository, and only an idiot would leave that master repository in someone else’s hands.

There is a bit of irony here since open source Lore is hosted on Github.

There’s definitely irony there and that has already been pointed out by some. At the end of the day, this whole tool is about the right tools for the right job. Git is superior for collaborative code projects even though Lore would have had the capability of hosting its own code. It’s also better, right? You can fork it, it’s not centralized.

Indeed and I’ve heard good things about them, it seems like they care. However, these are not open-source and Diversion is only ran as a service. Not that they have evil intentions but this leads me to discuss the following point.

In fact. I never liked them since the beginning and their affiliation with Tencent. However, this is not about trust. The license is there all in caps and it guarantees that the versions released under it are free for everyone. It could change in the future? Yes. Would it be a problem? No.

Forgejo, initially a soft fork of Gitea, now a hard fork, demonstrated that when change happens the community does not remain still. Now Forgejo is ran as the code forge of Codeberg, the real open GitHub.

Redot might also be an example (that I do not endorse) of people being able to make their own choice once the moment comes for it.

Lore is a centralized, open-source, binary-diffing, game oriented VCS of which, as I mentioned, only SVN might be. The difference comes in that it’s hard to find any SVN tooling nowadays, some people don’t even know about it. Lore could change that and the quick adoption of its API for integration in Godot is already a testament of it.

I think that your main grip is not with the tool but with the service, of which:

Nope. And it does not seem like they will, if they are smart. Lore seems more like a necessity they had to size up their Fortnite and UE capabilities and decided to open-source it for public reputation.

As you’ve said, centralized systems are not like distributed ones, which requires caring for your files. That’s something that we already have to do with SVN, Perforce, Ark. On-premise services offer the possibility of not doing so at the cost of true control.

I think that the culprit of vcs not progressing for video games is GitHub. I bet no one would think using Git for your game is “such a great idea” if there wasn’t a massive free platform to keep your games backed up in.

I think that @dragonforge-dev has tried to address the trustfulness of the author instead of the tool but we have to be as honest about Microsoft as we are about Epic. But I’ll give you that

I may have phrased Git as the evil villain of this story :sweat_smile:

I love Git and use it for all code projects. It is a win for the internet. It’s just that I would not like to use paint for photoshopping an image. I want binary-diffing for my blobs (even if it isn’t that that that impactful)

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Neat, I had not noticed this. Found an interesting comparison of Lore, Perforce, SVN and Git that details how much data is changed and sent for small binary modifications, as well as how offline mode works and how file locking isn’t actually implemented yet in Lore (it tells you someone else has it checked out, but you can still edit and push changes to a locked file).

Still, pretty promising though. I hope they don’t abandon it like Epic typically does with…almost every neat new feature or extension that goes into Unreal.

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Thanks for the article! There was a blog post about SVN performing better than Perforce so Subversion’s results do not surprise me but I definitely love to see Lore is up to the challenge.