[Off Topic] - Why Is A.I. Generated Content Like Music & Images Looked Down Upon In Video Games?

[dragonforge-dev]

I’m not ignoring the things you said before I started quoting. I agree mostly, and they make sense from where you are coming from.

@gobbel

Sorry if im coming across hostile here, its not so much directed at you as it is at the larger picture, but it does kind of anger me. People who using ai to make stuff they couldnt make themselves is the bigger problem here, but artists who are capable of creating real art using ai is just mystifying to me.

Here’s where the reality of life gets in the way. A few examples.

Professional Photography

I have a friend who is a professional photographer. A year or so before ChatGPT came out, Adobe Photoshop came out with an LLM-powered plugin. It studied the way the individual edited photographs, and then could batch edit phots for you, saving bunches of time. You could then go in and tweak things. But it could apply color grading, fix blemishes and redeye, etc.

If my friend had not adopted using this tool, they would not be able to keep up with other professional photographers who can now do more sessions. The economy since the pandemic has been brutal for photographers, because they can’t raise prices, and less people are spending money on professional photos.

The money to survive has to come from somewhere, and TBH they’ve been living at a pretty low income level anyway. A common problem for artists who make a living with their art.

Programming

You may not think of programming as art, but I do. It’s a very artistic expression of pure logic and clean code at high levels.

Developers are being put out of work in record numbers. Failing to adapt and use AI is a sure way to fall behind. The only way to resist using AI professionally is to already be in the top1% of the profession. Long term there are going to be problems with this, but the reality is programmers need jobs.

I have worked for companies I didn’t love because I had a family to support and needed to put food on the table. There are lots of programmers now fixing AI outputs because it keeps them employed - not because it’s what they want to do. But there are also people who are fine doing that job. Those people are a detriment. People who settle and accept. But what choice do they have financially?

Music Production / VFX / Film Editing

Not everyone uses autotune, but it’s out there. CGI is something an LLM can do pretty well - it’s already fake. Music production and film editing benefit not from the LLM taking over, but things like cutting a sound or visual thing out. LLMs are pretty good at that.

Our post-capitalist society requires people to continue to make more, faster to keep up with inflation and the ever growing economy. People who don’t use these tools will fall behind. And yes, you can create bespoke stuff, but most people cannot be bespoke artists.

Ideal World vs. Reality

This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

The Hollow Men
- T.S. Elliot

The problem is that rich people want to get richer, and corporations are legally rich people. People will be forced to use LLM tools to provide for themselves. Like the Luddites, we can rail against it, but in the end it is futile because we do not hold the power.

Not everyone can afford to be a purist (or puritan as @baba put it).

@gobbel

I do not know, but also the fundamental critique remains as long as the tool is a neural network that trains on data, its the same shit. Im sure in the future well get more and more detailed versions of these things, which give you more and more control over the output. Maybe it’ll go so far that one day they invent a guitar. You see my point.

I don’t see my point. Not trying to be obtuse.

I have seen the rise of Tata Taktumi, a performance piece created by legendary music producer Timbaland, using a real model for the face, and AI-generated music by Suno but run through professional music production by a very successful music producer. He’s not doing what you think he’s doing. And people only know his song is LLM-generated because he wants them to. It’s a performance piece. It’s art that’s meant to prod people to anger and get a reaction. The art isn’t the music - it’s the entire package and the delivery to an audience that is not sure if it wants it, but is divided between the vehemently opposed and the uncaring. You could not do this performance piece without the outrage.

@gobbel

First, i was not referring to your songs with that, but all of ai creation in general. And I did listen to this one, dunno why its not showing for you. Its what I was referring to with “I can try to appreciate the part thats you”.

Well cool. I’m not sure why it’s not showing either.

I get what you’re going for. I guess I might relate our discussion to a wine taster. I get that it’s not for you, but lots of people buy cheap wine.

Honestly, one of my biggest fears was just my doing that experiment, people would somehow assume in the future that all the music I use is LLM-generated. Which it is not. In fact, I’ve spent a lot of money supporting video game music composers.

@gobbel

And I would describe it as fairly generic yeah. I don’t hate it, and I’m sure I would like it less without your input, as I said, it can be a mix. But, as I also said, it is impossible to know which parts of it are the ones where i am listening to a human express themselves, when its buried in slop. Thats not an insult to your songwriting ability, i couldnt even comment on that, because I havent heard anything youve written. I get the impression I would probably like it.

I appreciate the thoughtful response.

@gobbel

If you write a prompt and get a painting, well, youve just asked someone else to do it. Im waiting for you to address that point.

That’s a fair point. My response to that is how is that different from the job of a video game producer or designer in a large company who comes up with ideas, but doesn’t know how to code, make game art, music or SFX? They are literally writing prompts in the form of design documentation or use cases or tickets.

Perhaps you don’t see it that way, but as someone who has worked in the games industry, there’s a comparison. No it’s not 1-to-1, but I also don’t think it’s apples and oranges.

@gobbel

This is not a good faith argument and you know that.

I was being facetious. My point was that as technology changes, people adapt. I think @baba made this point better than I.

@gobbel

I know the difference between LLM’s and AI, I’ll keep saying AI because thats what people say.

You do you. But I find it interesting that your argument here is basically what I’m saying about art. You’re saying because the masses have accepted the shorthand, you’re ok with it. I’m saying that the masses have also accepted that art can come from LLMs, and you do not like their judgement on that subject.

@gobbel

True, though it doesnt help that my projections are repeatedly strengthened by the fact that every time you see someone defending AI art, its the worst guy you’ve ever seen. Not you, I’m sure youre aware of the type.

No offense taken. I debate them fairly regularly when it comes to AI generated code. There’s a whole thread about it here that I started: Thoughts on answering/fixing AI LLM-created garbage code?

@gobbel

Yeah, I havent really talked with anyone who uses AI in the last couple years cause none of my friends do it anymore.

You are privileged then. As a software developer, I cannot get away from it. I’m currently doing work for a guy on a game, and he’s started using an LLM to code things I haven’t gotten to yet. I can either fix his output, or code it from scratch. I don’t get paid by the minute. Fixing his LLM slop code is faster than doing it myself and honestly, one more thing off my plate. I don’t love it, but I have to make a living.

Also, because I’ve spent time using and studying LLMs, and have kept abreast of them, I can direct him to the tools that cause me the least headaches.

Not having to to interact with LLMs for one’s job is a privilege that I do not have.

@gobbel

This is a case where im more than comfortable just going with my gut, and seeing that the majority of guts agree with me, im cool making the stand here and leaving the philosophy for later.

I don’t have data on the average gut, but when they do start doing studies, I believe apathy is going to win out - if not in the short term, the long term.

@gobbel

I dont really see artists saying that though. I’ll be blunt here, and I’m hoping that you dont think im directing this at you because you seem like a genuinely bright and creative guy: 99% of people I see defending prompt creation as artistic expression are untalented, undriven and generally anti-social. Nothing makes me more certain I’m right than seeing who disagrees with me. This is the first conversation in a long time ive had about ai with someone smart.

I appreciate the compliments.

You bring up good points. and I think it ties into the male loneliness epidemic, Gen Z and Alpha growing up on their phones and social media, and the general apathy of those generations about the state of the world.

My thought is that 100% human-generated art will become rarer. It will become bespoke. Like sitting for an oil painting as opposed to family pictures. So you’re probably right that artists won’t say that. But I think there will also be delineation of 100% human art. It’s already happening in the ad world.

I also see things like Suno, and the picture and video equivalents providing a service. That service is expression for people who do not have the means to express themselves any other way. Much as social media was for previous generations. Maybe not artistic expression (I agree that just using a prompt isn’t artistic expression, I’m just not sure where the line is), but it is the tools they have easy access to.